Access Keys:
Skip to content (Access Key - 0)
Sign Up (Access Key - 4)

Add Content

Browse

Navigation

PIUG Website

PIUG Home
PIUG Officers
Bylaws
Members Only
Membership
Newsletter
Patent Meetings
Vendors

My Favourites

Quality vs Cost of Novelty Searches

Added by Edward O'Gorman , last edited by Admin - Tom Wolff on Feb 05, 2010 12:56

Enter labels to add to this page:
Please wait 
Looking for a label? Just start typing.

Dear PIUG members,

New to this, but I am concerned at the quality of some searchers offering "novelty searches" for very little (less than £200). A true novelty search can take quite a lot of effort unless something comes up immediately. Surely the service providers should qualify their offers with Preliminary Novelty Search or Cursory Novelty Search?

Any thoughts?

Eddie
PatentNav Ltd.




  1. Feb 06, 2010

    Robert E. (Bob) Buntrock says:

    When starting our information services consulting firm (dealing in chemical info...

    When starting our information services consulting firm (dealing in chemical information of all kinds, not just patents), my wife and I attended "starting your own business" seminars at an outplacement firm (fees furnished from my previous organization from which I had taken "early retirement").  We drafted a business plan and when it was analyzed the next day in "class", the moderator suggested that I offer flat rate services.  I replied that from my experience that this was impossible because even the most simple search requests at first sight could become very profound on further analysis.  That's still the case and I'm sure this rule of thumb applies even more to novelty searches.  I would fear for quick and dirty at best and bait and switch at worst.

  2. Feb 07, 2010

    Ramesh Verma says:

    I fully agree with Bob. It's the individual judgement, if anybody is offering no...

    I fully agree with Bob. It's the individual judgement, if anybody is offering novelty searches in very little (£200); what would be his profit and input cost (databases, utilities) where you require a skilled person for that particular job.

  3. Feb 08, 2010

    Alexander Levin says:

    I agree with Bob - searcher may never know beforehead how much time he will spen...

    I agree with Bob - searcher may never know beforehead how much time he will spend on particular task, however, there is another side to this coin - the client, being able to find an offering of presumably same service for flat fee and comparing it to other options, is reluctant to pay hourly rates. So there is a conflict of quantity (of money being paid) vs, quality (of search) - since the searcher will try to minimize time expenditure as possible, in order to increase his profit. 

    At my firm, we solve it by paradox - we offer "flat" range as initial offer to ease it on the client, but than we taylor price offer per each search request. It is also our job to explain to the client (inquirer) the differences in quality of "cheap and dirty" searches vs professionally done ones. That way, the client is much more educated and able to arrive at independent decisions regarding not only the search, but the overall patenting process and other related IP projects.

    The above said refers to first time users of IP service providers. People more familiar with the industry usually incline toward choosing quality of services - with an eye to expenses, of course.

    Please share your thoughts.

    The above said cannot be used as an advice, and expresses only the personal views of the author

    1. Feb 08, 2010

      Robert E. (Bob) Buntrock says:

      Personally, I would still find it difficult to provide a flat rate search, even ...

      Personally, I would still find it difficult to provide a flat rate search, even initially.  What if the QAD search turned out to be very deficient?  Even with a warning (and education on quick vs. good or better), this could approach being deceptive (I won't use "bait and switch", a little harsh, but you get the idea).  I've operated on a cost recovery basis all of my searching life (and in the corporate world, with overhead dwindling to nothing, at least as far as I was concerned).  No room for subsidies, cash (or project money) on the barrelhead.

  4. Feb 08, 2010

    Narayan Subramanian says:

    I would think the Quality vs. cost debate has been raging for a long time and no...

    I would think the Quality vs. cost debate has been raging for a long time and not only in searching. I feel this curve tapers after a certain cost, in terms of the value add.

    When people say novelty search, it is a novelty search, a USC 102 rejection based search. If we consider aspects such as patentabilty that include obviousness searching, designing around, and claims drafting based on the search then the cost should run up to lot more. There are many that do effective novelty search for lot less than 200 pounds.

    It is important to utilize resources effectively, for a large multinational that files thousands of patents annually such detail searches may not be necessary for all programs. For smaller companies and key patents for larger companies, going with the detailed strategy is recommended.


    Nar

  5. Feb 08, 2010

    Rex Yeap says:

    >I am concerned at the quality of some searchers offering "novelty searches" ...

    >I am concerned at the quality of some searchers offering "novelty searches" for very little (less than £200).
    >A true novelty search can take quite a lot of effort unless something comes up immediately.
    >Surely the service providers should qualify their offers with Preliminary Novelty Search or Cursory Novelty Search?

    Let's consider these two variables, Revenue (£200, quantitative) and Quality (high, qualitative).

    For all cases, holding Quality as constant, how much is £200 (Revenue) worth?

    It should be easy to realise that the 'worth' of £200 varies across different countries, from Switzerland to United States to Thailand to India to Congo.

    Let's review Eddie's original question from another perspective where we are deciding on several countries to set up our patent analytics offices (with the intention of optimising staff costs), one might consider looking at the list of countries based on:

    • G1. GDP (norminal) per capital, and/or,
    • G2. GDP (Purchasing power parity) per hour worked
    • among other GDP related information.

    Visualization of G1 and G2: http://tinyurl.com/yjbhju8

    Incidentally, this approach of Cost-Quality analysis is applicable to other industries since Industrial revolution.

    Food for thought.

    1. Feb 08, 2010

      Robert E. (Bob) Buntrock says:

      Interesting approach to the subject.  Therefore, do you propose to adjust t...

      Interesting approach to the subject.  Therefore, do you propose to adjust the charges proportionial to the GDP of the country of origin of the request?

      Of course, if a novelty search uncovers prior art in just a few minutes of searching, a novelty search could be done for under 200 Pounds (although even then the hourly wage of the searcher would have to be at rates significantly less than those charged by searches in the US for example.

      Then there's the quality issue.  I've heard (private communication) that some searches for chemical composition were run on Delphion only and not on structure-based files.  Chemical nomenclature is tricky enough, even for a chemist, and is not comprehensive.

      I always furnish a cover letter over the search report stating what concepts were searched and what resources were used.  Output is labeled as to source, especially if multi-file.  Effective chemical searching requires chemist searchers and I believe that it's even more ncessary to pay trained chemists (and chemical searchers) a competitive wage (regardless of the GDP).

      1. Feb 08, 2010

        Rex Yeap says:

        For the evaluation of the value of £200, we can also consider another approach, ...

        For the evaluation of the value of £200, we can also consider another approach, ie. Gross National Income:

        • I1. GNI (nominal, Atlas method) per capita,
        • I2. GNI (PPP) per capita.

        Visualization of I1 and I2: http://tinyurl.com/yjsb2by

        More food for thought.

  6. Feb 09, 2010

    Rick Williams says:

    Proving patentability is a good example of proving a thing "true" ... a logical ...

    Proving patentability is a good example of proving a thing "true" ... a logical falacy.

    You can exhaust resources at hand and search forever, as long as the point is not proven by the discovery (never mind the existence) of prior art. You will never know that it exists but you didn't find it - only that you didn't find it. And the longer it takes, the more you will spend. Don't they say,"One must spend money to make money"? ... they also say, "You get what you pay for."

    One rule of thumb is to expend no less effort than the anticipated amount of effort the patent examiner will expend.

    1. Feb 10, 2010

      Edward O'Gorman says:

      Thanks for all you comments, the reason I put this up for discussion is I am deb...

      Thanks for all you comments, the reason I put this up for discussion is I am debating with the local enterprise agency who put out a tender for searches they provide for free to Northern Irish Inventors. We put in a high bid which included the £5m indemnity (the number of searches is about 350 per year). The winner provided a bid at less than £200 inc the indemnity and the winner is a local patent agent who does his own searching.

      1. Feb 12, 2010

        Edlyn Simmons says:

        Are you saying that this patent agent is planning to do 7 searches a week all by...

        Are you saying that this patent agent is planning to do 7 searches a week all by himself?

        Even if he uses only free information resources, has no other office expenses, and works fast and cheap, that shouldn't give him enough to read the patent disclosure, work out a search strategy and review the search results. In the pre-online days, a searcher could go to the local patent office, flip through the paper patent collections, and report what he saw there. It worked okay for the mechanical arts, where patents are the main form of literature, but in the chemical arts it worked only for freedom to practice searches. And, of course, there are lots more patents now, so a search takes lots longer than it used to.

        But maybe this patent agent still thinks that's how you do a search. And maybe the people who gave him the contract don't know anything about novelty searching either.

  7. Feb 12, 2010

    Elyse D. Robinson Turner says:

    The nature of what patent search firms offer has changed dramatically over the l...

    The nature of what patent search firms offer has changed dramatically over the last 10 years.  Large corporations that traditionally had highly trained and experienced searchers have been turning more toward outsourcing patent searches.  When they do, they are looking for firms that offer services similar to what they had internally where multiple databases were searched including those indexing Markush structures.  Firms that historically did not offer such services have reevaluated the market.  We see more of them joining PIUG and expanding their training and experience. In my opinion quality comes down to what the customer is looking for.  There are 2 grocery stores near me.  One is slightly less expensive than the other.  When I am shopping for name brand items I shop at the less expensive store because I have learned I get the same product cheaper.  But I never buy produce, baked goods or deli there because I have been very disappointed with the quality.  I feel really bad for those clients who learn their patent search lesson thru a lawsuit. 

Adaptavist Theme Builder (4.1.0) Powered by Atlassian Confluence 3.1.2, the Enterprise Wiki.